a warning about FUCOIDAN products
Question:
Mark said: > > Of course, the Japanese have eaten various types of seaweed > > for centuries, but those seaweeds aren’t limu. > Wrong again, the sea plants they’ve eaten for centuries IS the same brown > seaweed. > But on the Royal Tongan Limu web site, it says: > $ Until recently, only the Tongan people knew of the ancient, health > $ enhancing secret ingredient that is Limu Moui. > So limu moui couldn’t possibly be the same thing as any > Japanese seaweed, right? Or, are you calling the people > who created the Royal Tongan Limu web site liars?
Nah…they’re not liars….It’s the same seaweed…. Like other companies…..that’s a bit of advertising/promotional stuff I would guess….. Or who knows…maybe up until recently the people of Tonga really did think that?
Response:
> I have no problem what so ever with anyone asking questions and wanting > information, credentials, etc. etc. I would encourage this practice.. There > are "scams" all over the place and because of that it would be foolish not > to check out what you’re being told.
Okay, I’ve got a bachelor’s degree in Neurobiology from UC-Berkeley. What are your credentials? It would seem from your interpretation of the following passage that you don’t understand basic terms in medicine.
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Exp Cell Res 1998 Mar 15;239(2):301-10 > Sulfated glycosaminoglycans enhance tumor cell invasion > in vitro by stimulating plasminogen activation. > Metastasizing tumor cells invade host tissues by degrading > extracellular matrix constituents. We report here that the > highly sulfated glycosaminoglycans, heparin and heparan > sulfate, as well as the sulfated polysaccharide, fucoidan, > significantly enhanced tumor cell invasion in vitro into > fibrin, the basement membrane extract, Matrigel, or through > a basement membrane-like extracellular matrix. The > enhancement of tumor cell invasion was due to a stimulation > of the proteolytic cascade of plasminogen activation since > the effect required plasminogen activation and was > abolished by inhibitors of urokinase-type plasminogen > activator (uPA) or plasmin. Sulfated polysaccharides > enhanced five reactions of tumor-cell initiated plasminogen > activation in a dose-dependent manner. They amplified > plasminogen activation in culture supernatants up to 70-fold > by stimulating (i) pro-uPA activation by plasmin and > (ii) plasminogen activation by uPA. (iii) In addition, > sulfated polysaccharides partially protected plasmin > from inactivation by alpha 2-antiplasmin. Sulfated > polysaccharides also stimulated tumor-cell associated > plasminogen activation, e.g., (iv) cell surface pro-uPA > activation by plasmin and (v) plasminogen activation by > cell surface uPA. These results suggest that sulfated > glycosaminoglycans liberated by tumor-cell mediated > extracellular matrix degradation in vivo might amplify > pericellular plasminogen activation and locally enhance > tumor cell invasion in a positive feedback manner.
$ Yes…exactly! Either one of us doesn’t understand the $ above or you don’t believe that speeding up the natural $ invasion (attack) on a tumor to be a good thing. What $ I read sounds positive….. You interpreted the abstract I posted as meaning the exact opposite of what it was saying. It was saying that fucoidan enhances the process by which tumor cells invade tissues. How could you make a mistake like that? What are your credentials? > But some people appear to be against any form of alternative treatment. To > these folks it doesn’t matter how safe it is, how long it’s been used or how > well it might address certain health problems. If it’s not a "traditional" > approach they’re going to attempt to discredit it.
You forgot to mention the conspiracy. We’re all part of a conspiracy. We shot JFK, we buried Jimmy Hoffa, and we would have ruled the world by now if it weren’t for a ragtag bunch of chiropractors, acupuncturists, and homeopathic physicians. But we’ll get you yet! :-) > . I’ve not been in this group too long…but Mark is beginning to look like > one of these type people. If the mis-information he gives out is not > challanged, people may believe him. This could result in a person not > getting the chance to see if a particular treatment/product might help them. > And that’s just not right. That’s why this has turned into an argument.
What misinformation? Please point to something I’ve said which isn’t true, so I can correct it. Do you disagree that fucoidan is a powerful anticoagulant? Do you disagree that an anticoagulant could be risky for some people? If you believe that the dose of fucoidan in limu is too low to be risky, how do you know that? What evidence can you cite which shows that the dose is too low to be risky? Is it not true that the manufacturer of Royal Tongan Limu has spread misinformation about its own products? http://www.ftc.gov/os/1998/9803/aging98.rpt.htm "In 1995, the Commission issued a cease and desist order against Nature’s Bounty, Inc. and two of its subsidiaries to settle allegations that they made deceptive weight-loss, body-building, disease-treatment and/or other health-related claims for 26 nutrient supplements they marketed. The order prohibits the respondents from making various allegedly false claims, as well as requiring them to have substantiation for future health claims. The order also requires the respondents to pay $250,000 to the Commission — to be used for consumer redress, if practical, or to be paid to the U.S. Treasury." Are you saying that quote is misinformation? It’s true, isn’t it? Or perhaps this is the misinformation you’re talking about: Limu Moui’s main ingredient is Fucoidan, which according to prominent Japanese researcher Dr. Kyosuke Owa is said to "contain the same healing antibodies found in mother’s milk, providing essential amino acids and a balanced diet of minerals necessary to boost the immune system." That’s a quote from the Royal Tongan Limu web site. I say it’s baloney. I say that plants don’t make any antibodies. Do you disagree with me?
Response:
> From where I sit it looks like people take the results of some studies > done by researchers and blow them all out of proportion. So in the > lab fucoidan promotes apoptosis among certain types of cancer cells? > So what? I can’t tell you how many substances have been shown to > promote apoptosis of cancer cells in the lab and without causing harm > to the normal cells. New substances doing this are being found every > day. By far the overwhelming majority are found to have no clinical > significance when they go to clinical trials. Why? Because the > functioning of the body chemistry is so damned complex. All this > research is like Pasteur looking for compound 606 – yes, he had to try > 606 compounds before he found one which had some effect against > syphilis. Why pick out fucoidan, noni juice precipitants, kelp, other > complex polysaccharides as the one magic answer to anything?
I agree completely……there are no "one magic answers". My guess > is if you asked the researchers whose study showed increased apoptosis > if they were taking fucoidan to help them prevent cancer, they’d say > something like, "It’s much too early too conclude anything, so I can’t > advise it. However, it is part of the Japanese diet." By the way, it > has been used as a thickener in ice cream and other foods which we eat > here in the USA normally (I saw this on the web).
I’ve never heard this information before…… The other side > also, about Fucoidans promoting the spread of cancer cells, to me > means nothing either. Again to extrapolate this to a clinical effect > in humans is pretty extreme. Maybe that happens in vitro, maybe even > in mice. At this point, so what? I wouldn’t let this stop me from > drinking noni-juice or wherever you choose to get your fucoidan from, > if you like the stuff and it seems to make you feel better.
My feelings exactly…..While I’ve never personally used Noni juice, I’ve heard mostly very positive remarks about it’s health benefits. You talk > about anticoagulant properties. Apparently they are now studying why > the anticoagulant, Coumadin, seems to postpone the occurrence of > metastases clinically. Fucoidan could turn out to delay metastasis > when taken by humans with cancer, it could turn out to promote it, or > most likely it would do neither. I can’t see arguing over this or any > other stuff until those doing the research are finding something > definite.
I have no problem what so ever with anyone asking questions and wanting information, credentials, etc. etc. I would encourage this practice.. There are "scams" all over the place and because of that it would be foolish not to check out what you’re being told. But some people appear to be against any form of alternative treatment. To these folks it doesn’t matter how safe it is, how long it’s been used or how well it might address certain health problems. If it’s not a "traditional" approach they’re going to attempt to discredit it. . I’ve not been in this group too long…but Mark is beginning to look like one of these type people. If the mis-information he gives out is not challanged, people may believe him. This could result in a person not getting the chance to see if a particular treatment/product might help them. And that’s just not right. That’s why this has turned into an argument. Also please remember I am not selling the Royal Tongan Limu supplement…..anyone can purchase this product direct from the company. That probably wont be for years and years. Endostatin > looks so good and its been over ten years since I first heard about > it, and still there’s nothing definite enough for anyone to start > marketing it as a treatment for cancer. If you like Fucoidan, take > it, and if you have doubts, don’t. But at this point, arguing about > the advantages or disadvantages of it is like arguing over how many > angels can fit on the head of a pin. I, myself, look into these new > drugs because I have a rare disease which looks like cancer under the > microscope but isn’t acting like cancer, so whatever looks promising I > like to try and see what it does to my bumps. If I should try > something and I get no more bumps, I’ll tell the clinical researchers > working on my disease. But I can’t say I have any great hopes for > anything.
May I ask the name of this disease? Cher God Bless America. O/ Let Freedom Ring!
Response:
> > Limu moui is also known as kombu, mazuku and angel’s hair. This plant > contains the polysaccharide known as fucoidan. > Kombu is kelp, which is any of several species of _Laminaria_. > You can get this from many health food stores, as well as Oriental > food stores. For this Nature’s Bounty is charging $42 a bottle?
Kombu, is an edible seaweed harvested in Hokkaido, is sent from coastal areas along the Japan Sea to Sakai for processing. Some 150 kombu processing companies flocked to Sakai during their heyday in the first half of the 20th century. Extremely thin sheets and fibers of kombu called "Oboro" or "Tororo" are major Sakai products today. Kombu is popular in a variety of traditional Japanese dishes and as a snack. > Which is all besides the point. You haven’t provided any > evidence contrary to the paper about fucoidan enhancing > tumor cell invasion.
I’ve provided more than sufficient evidence that the brown seaweed/kelp "Limu Moui" (known by a variety of names) has been consummed for centuries and credited by those who consume it as being beneficial to their health. You cited test tube studies which > found fucoidan induces apoptosis (cell death) in some types > of cancer cells, but that says nothing to refute the study about > this very nasty effect of helping tumor cells metastasize > (spread beyond the tumor). If fucoidan doesn’t induce > apoptosis in the particular type of cancer you have, that > sure would be bad luck, wouldn’t it? I certainly wouldn’t > use this product if I had cancer or the possibility I was > carrying an undiscovered cancer.
You are very foolish. > What about the other claims you made, such as:
I’ve already responded to these twice…maybe three times? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> $ How can fucoidan do so much? Is it a miracle or a cure all? No. It simply > $ gives the immune system what it needs to function properly. When the immune > $ system is working properly it is able to correct many of the ailments and > $ illness’s we experience today. > Why would this chemical — fucoidan — be what your immune > system "needs to function properly"? This is not a normal > constituent of the human diet. Why would the immune system > have a need for something which is not normally present > in the diet?
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> According to the Nature’s Bounty web site on limu: > $ Until recently, only the Tongan people knew of the ancient, health > enhancing > $ secret ingredient that is Limu Moui. > From what they say, it appears that neither the Japanese nor anybody > except the Tongans have consumed limu until recently. > Better double check your information….The Japanese have eaten this type > sea plant for centuries. Limu Moui is the name by which one group of people > call it. It is also referred to by other names. I believe the Japanese > call it Kombu or Mozuku…it’s the same plant. > According to an FDA review of another manufacturer’s data, > fucoidan-based supplements have only been marketed in Japan > since 1999: > http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/95s0316/rpt0082.pdf > Of course, the Japanese have eaten various types of seaweed > for centuries, but those seaweeds aren’t limu. > Wrong again, the sea plants they’ve eaten for centuries IS the same brown > seaweed.
But on the Royal Tongan Limu web site, it says: $ Until recently, only the Tongan people knew of the ancient, health $ enhancing secret ingredient that is Limu Moui. So limu moui couldn’t possibly be the same thing as any Japanese seaweed, right? Or, are you calling the people who created the Royal Tongan Limu web site liars?
Response:
> According to the Nature’s Bounty web site on limu: > $ Until recently, only the Tongan people knew of the ancient, health enhancing > $ secret ingredient that is Limu Moui. > From what they say, it appears that neither the Japanese nor anybody > except the Tongans have consumed limu until recently.
Better double check your information….The Japanese have eaten this type sea plant for centuries. Limu Moui is the name by which one group of people call it. It is also referred to by other names. I believe the Japanese call it Kombu or Mozuku…it’s the same plant. > According to an FDA review of another manufacturer’s data, > fucoidan-based supplements have only been marketed in Japan > since 1999: > http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/95s0316/rpt0082.pdf > Of course, the Japanese have eaten various types of seaweed > for centuries, but those seaweeds aren’t limu.
Wrong again, the sea plants they’ve eaten for centuries IS the same brown seaweed. Sea vegetables offer untapped plethora of health benefits. Much attention has been focused of late on the Asian diet, which appears to contain a wealth of protective health-promoting compounds. An examination of the Asian diet reveals that it is rich in sea vegetables. It should come as no surprise, therefore, that the long recognized traditional health benefits of certain sea vegetables are now being confirmed by modern scientific research. Seaweed has long been used in the Japanese and Chinese diet. In 600 B.C., Sze Teu wrote in China, "Some algae are a delicacy fit for the most honored guests, even for the King himself." Some 21 species are used in everyday cooking in Japan, six of them since the eighth century. Seaweed accounts for some 10% of the Japanese diet and seaweed consumption reached an average of 3.5 kg per household in 1973, a 20% increase in 10 years. Most important are nori (Porphyra species), kombu (Laminaria spp.) and wakame (Undaria spp.). In the West, seaweed is largely regarded as a health food and, although there has been an upsurge of interest in the last 20 years, it is unlikely that sea vegetable consumption will ever be more than a fraction of what it is in Japan. Among U.S. suppliers, all sea vegetables are known under a very general name "Pacific" and/or "Atlantic" kelp, which represents in most cases a "cocktail" of a dozen plant species harvested in the open ocean. The focus of scientific inquiry has been directed at a sub-group of sea vegetables known as phaeophytes (brown seaweed). Powerful antioxidant activity was recently discovered in certain members of this class and this finding has resulted in an enormous increase in research on sea vegetables’ metabolites and their activity against free radicals. The fruits of this research have shown that certain phaeophytes contain highly active polyphenols called phloroglucinols (1,3,5-trihydroxybenzene) that possess free radicals neutralizing activity. Recently Japanese scientists discovered that phenolic compounds such as phloroglucinols possess 5-lipoxigenase activity. The products of arachidonic acid metabolism are not tumor promoters themselves, but play an integral part in the underlying mechanism of tumor promotion and 5-lipoxigenase is a key enzyme in the arachidonic cascade. Phytoactives present in brown sea vegetables possess antibacterial activity and phloroglucinol is responsible for this effect. In addtion phloroglucinols are moderate MAO inhibitors. This fact could contribute to their strong anti-depressant activity. Sea vegetables and cholesterol. The Japanese have believed for many years that eating seaweed prolongs life. Since many deaths are due to heart disease, which mav he linked with high plasma cholesterol levels and hypertension, the effect of seaweed on these physiological values have been investigated. Again, sea vegetables such as Ascophyllum, (Cystoseira and Fucus have been shown to lower significantly plasma cholesterol levels (Krotkiewski M., European Patent #90850263.6) and the active compounds have been identified: Fucosterol and the unsaturated fatty acids show hypocholesterolemic activity. This ability to reduce plasma cholesterol levels and to increase serum lipolytic activity may explain their use in the prevention of atherosclerosis. An antihypertensive activity of substances with sodium-binding properties, e.g. a polysaccharide, is obtained from brown seaweed fibers. Sea vegetables and cancer. Certain sea vegetables have long been used in traditional Japanese and Chinese medicine in the treatment of cancer. Oxidative processes are involved in both the initiation of carcinogenesis and the promotion of tumor development (Pryor, 1987). Research of recent years provides strong evidence that the sea vegetables Ascophyllum, Cystoseira and Fucus showed antitumoral activity (lC50mg/mL) against leukemia P-388 (Norte et al. 1995). Based on epidemiological and biological data, consumption of sea vegetables are proposed as an important factor contributing to the relativelv low breast cancer rates reported in Japan. It is well known that sea vegetables are the best source of nondigestible fiber, increasing fecal bulk and decreasing bowel transit time; it changes the posthepatic metabolism of sterols; it contains an antibiotic substance that may influence fecal ecology; it contains 1-3 beta glucan, which alters enzymatic activity of fecal flora and it stimulates the host-mediated immune response. It is suggested that Laminaria may play a role in preventing either the initiation of breast cancer or its promotion by endogenous physiological factors. Among mammary adenocarcinoma tumor-bearing animals, experimental rats had fewer individual adenocarcinomas. There was also an overall 13% reduction in the number of experimental rats with histologically confirmed denocarcinomas (76% among the control rats compared to 63% among the experimental rats). Components of Laminaria, which might account for the observed difference in mammary tumor growth are varied and include the sulfated polysaccharide Fucans or fucoidan. Fucans, sulfated polysaccharides extracted from brown seaweed, have been shown to have inhibitory effects on cell growth in various experimental models. These findings raise the possibility that brown seaweed may, have clinical value in the prevention of cancer metastasis. Sea vegetables commonly eaten in Japan inhibit breast carcinogenesis. Anti-mutagenic activities were detected in polysaccharide and non-polysaccharide fractions from the extract of the other edible brown alga, Undaria pinnatifida (wakame in Japanese). These experimental results indicate that the hot water-soluble extract of Larninaria japonica or Undaria pinnatifida contains heterogenous antimutagenic activities against typical genotoxic substances. The role of seaweed in breast cancer treatment was indirectly implicated at the inception of the low thyroid breast cancer hypothesis. Ancient Egyptians gave seaweed to breast cancer patients (Ebers Papyrus) and suggested that the iodine content in the seaweed was responsible for stimulating the thyroid. This hypothesis has generated many studies over the last 25 years, although none were able to establish a causal link between thyroid dysfunction and subsequent breast cancer. It has been observed that women with breast cancer who also have thyroid dysfunction have a poorer prognosis for both five and ten year survival. The most convincing data arguing against this theory is that as a result of iodized salt, endemic goiter rates have declined in the U.S., while breast cancer mortality rates have not. It is therefore intriguing to consider the alternative explanation -that it was the seaweed rather than the iodine content that lent efficacy to the Egyptian treatment. The existing data are supportive of the idea that sea vegetable consumption as well as terrestrial vegetables might be a protective factor. Sea vegetables and HIV Anti-HIV-active and anti-herpes polysaccharides and polyphenols have been isolated in brown seaweed Fucus vesiculosus and red alga Dumontia. What about green sea vegetables such as Ulva rigida or sea lettuce, an edible alga containing the extraordinary potencies of soluble and insoluble dietarv fiber and important minerals, as well as high potencies of vitamins, polysaccharides, chlorophyll and protein? Ulva rigida is a member of the group of green seaweeds Monostroma and Enteromorpha, which are called "annori" in Japanese. Ulva has been used in salad and soups for many centuries; however, the recent discovery that xylorhamnoglucuronan (Ulvan) and glucuronic acid are major constituents of Ulva dramatically increased interest in this seaweed. Glucuronic acid is a strategically important component of chondroitin (viscosity mucopolysaccharides that act as the flexible connecting matrix between collagen filaments in cartilage to form a polymeric system). To be able to svnthesize enough chondroitin, the human body needs glucuronic acid and glucosamine. The lack of one of these components dramatically decreases the chondroitin synthesis. Russian scientists provided strong evidence that the rate of CI4 chondroitin sulfate synthesis de novo is much higher from I 4C glucuronic acid (Ulva) than from Cl4 chondroitin (Sidorov et al. 1977; Applied Microbiology and Biotechnology). We believe that chondroitin is hydrolyzed before it becomes bio-available in the body and that the rate of this hydrolysis not so high as to compete with free glucuronic acid (Sidorov et al. 1977). These results are not surprising, since glucuronic acid is an essential constituent of chondroitin. Beside glucuronic acid, Ulva rigida contains high proline and ascorbic acid required for collagen synthesis. In the process of collagen synthesis two amino acids, proline and … read more »
Response:
- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > > Exp Cell Res 1998 Mar 15;239(2):301-10 > > > Sulfated glycosaminoglycans enhance tumor cell invasion > > > in vitro by stimulating plasminogen activation. > > > Metastasizing tumor cells invade host tissues by degrading > > > extracellular matrix constituents. > > Yes…exactly! Either one of us doesn’t understand the above or you don’t > > believe that speeding up the natural invasion (attack) on a tumor to be a > > good thing. What I read sounds positive….. > What part of "Metastasizing tumor cells invade host tissues …" > don’t you understand? Metastasis is the process by which > a cancer (tumor) spreads by invading other tissues. > Limu moui is also known as kombu, mazuku and angel’s hair. This plant > contains the polysaccharide known as fucoidan.
Kombu is kelp, which is any of several species of _Laminaria_. You can get this from many health food stores, as well as Oriental food stores. For this Nature’s Bounty is charging $42 a bottle? However, I think you’re mistaken about the limu moui being kombu. I suspect it’s actually a species of _Asparagopsis_. Nobody would refer to the broad fronds of _Laminaria_ as "angel’s hair", however, that might be a reasonable name for the feathery tufts of _Asparagopsis_taxiformis_, which the Hawaiians call limu kohu. Which is all besides the point. You haven’t provided any evidence contrary to the paper about fucoidan enhancing tumor cell invasion. You cited test tube studies which found fucoidan induces apoptosis (cell death) in some types of cancer cells, but that says nothing to refute the study about this very nasty effect of helping tumor cells metastasize (spread beyond the tumor). If fucoidan doesn’t induce apoptosis in the particular type of cancer you have, that sure would be bad luck, wouldn’t it? I certainly wouldn’t use this product if I had cancer or the possibility I was carrying an undiscovered cancer. What about the other claims you made, such as: $ How can fucoidan do so much? Is it a miracle or a cure all? No. It simply $ gives the immune system what it needs to function properly. When the immune $ system is working properly it is able to correct many of the ailments and $ illness’s we experience today. Why would this chemical — fucoidan — be what your immune system "needs to function properly"? This is not a normal constituent of the human diet. Why would the immune system have a need for something which is not normally present in the diet?
Response:
> What about the other claims you made, such as: > $ How can fucoidan do so much? Is it a miracle or a cure all? No. It simply > $ gives the immune system what it needs to function properly. > Why would this chemical — fucoidan — be what your immune > system "needs to function properly"?
From where I sit it looks like people take the results of some studies done by researchers and blow them all out of proportion. So in the lab fucoidan promotes apoptosis among certain types of cancer cells? So what? I can’t tell you how many substances have been shown to promote apoptosis of cancer cells in the lab and without causing harm to the normal cells. New substances doing this are being found every day. By far the overwhelming majority are found to have no clinical significance when they go to clinical trials. Why? Because the functioning of the body chemistry is so damned complex. All this research is like Pasteur looking for compound 606 – yes, he had to try 606 compounds before he found one which had some effect against syphilis. Why pick out fucoidan, noni juice precipitants, kelp, other complex polysaccharides as the one magic answer to anything? My guess is if you asked the researchers whose study showed increased apoptosis if they were taking fucoidan to help them prevent cancer, they’d say something like, "It’s much too early too conclude anything, so I can’t advise it. However, it is part of the Japanese diet." By the way, it has been used as a thickener in ice cream and other foods which we eat here in the USA normally (I saw this on the web). The other side also, about Fucoidans promoting the spread of cancer cells, to me means nothing either. Again to extrapolate this to a clinical effect in humans is pretty extreme. Maybe that happens in vitro, maybe even in mice. At this point, so what? I wouldn’t let this stop me from drinking noni-juice or wherever you choose to get your fucoidan from, if you like the stuff and it seems to make you feel better. You talk about anticoagulant properties. Apparently they are now studying why the anticoagulant, Coumadin, seems to postpone the occurrence of metastases clinically. Fucoidan could turn out to delay metastasis when taken by humans with cancer, it could turn out to promote it, or most likely it would do neither. I can’t see arguing over this or any other stuff until those doing the research are finding something definite. That probably wont be for years and years. Endostatin looks so good and its been over ten years since I first heard about it, and still there’s nothing definite enough for anyone to start marketing it as a treatment for cancer. If you like Fucoidan, take it, and if you have doubts, don’t. But at this point, arguing about the advantages or disadvantages of it is like arguing over how many angels can fit on the head of a pin. I, myself, look into these new drugs because I have a rare disease which looks like cancer under the microscope but isn’t acting like cancer, so whatever looks promising I like to try and see what it does to my bumps. If I should try something and I get no more bumps, I’ll tell the clinical researchers working on my disease. But I can’t say I have any great hopes for anything.
Response:
> > And let’s not forget the other questions that Cher conveniently > > ignores. > I’m still waiting for you to answer a few questions as well….Such as: What > are your credentials? Why should your opinion be more valuable than Dr. > DeSilva’s? > Because I’m not a huckster trying to sell the stuff. I don’t > have a vested interest in trying to hype the product.
You must be kidding? Dr. SeSilva is not in sales. > People don’t need my credentials because I cite my sources > of information.
Maybe "people" don’t need your credentials, never the less…….I asked what they were so that I would know. You’ve failed to give me anything. I cite scientific papers (and quote them when > relevant) and government reports. I give exact and complete > citations, so anyone can check up on them to verify their > accuracy.
So have I…as a matter of fact I’ve cited many, many more. > Your request for credentials is just a distraction from the > questions I raise.
Why on earth would you consider it a distraction for someone to ask for your credentials? For example, you still haven’t responded > to this earlier question. You said: > $ How can fucoidan do so much? Is it a miracle or a cure all? No. It simply > $ gives the immune system what it needs to function properly. When the immune > $ system is working properly it is able to correct many of the ailments and > $ illness’s we experience today. > Why would this chemical — fucoidan — be what your immune > system "needs to function properly"? This is not a normal > constituent of the human diet. Why would the immune system > have a need for something which is not normally present > in the diet?
I did respond to this….I said that the limu moui plant contains fucoidan along with many other beneficial nutrients, minerals, etc. Obviously all of us do not recieve sufficient amounts of some of these. The limu supplement offers a good way to recieve what we may be missing in our diets. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Your references to the anti-clotting ability was taken from clinical studies > on fucoidan. The supplement I"ve suggested *is not* fucoidan, but rather a > product made from a sea plant that contains many valuable nutrients and > fucoidan. > Actually, no. I did not cite any clinical studies on fucoidan. > You don’t seem to understand what a "clinical study" is. > A clinical study is a study performed in humans to establish > the safe and effective dosage range. Phase I clinical studies > establish the safe range, and Phase II clinical studies establish > the effective dose. Fucoidan has had neither Phase I nor > Phase II clinical studies. Therefore, we don’t know how > much is safe or effective. > I apologize for "going on" about fucoidan. I shouldn’t have. That has been > misleading and I’m sorry for getting carried away.. It’s just that the > Yes, very misleading. Deceptive.
No that is not deceptive….and if you think it is you’re even shallower than I’d imagined! Must be nice to be perfect like you! Geeezzzz!!! > fucoidan has been looked at extensively and the research is very promising. > The small amount of fucoidan, along with the other wide variety of > nutrients, minerals and chemical compounds offer an excellent source of > nutrition which is helping many people to achieve better health. > Small amount? According to the Nature’s Bounty web > site on limu, it’s the main ingredient:
Meaning the company considers it the most important ingredient…..
Response:
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Exp Cell Res 1998 Mar 15;239(2):301-10 > > Sulfated glycosaminoglycans enhance tumor cell invasion > > in vitro by stimulating plasminogen activation. > > Metastasizing tumor cells invade host tissues by degrading > > extracellular matrix constituents. > Yes…exactly! Either one of us doesn’t understand the above or you don’t > believe that speeding up the natural invasion (attack) on a tumor to be a > good thing. What I read sounds positive….. > What part of "Metastasizing tumor cells invade host tissues …" > don’t you understand? Metastasis is the process by which > a cancer (tumor) spreads by invading other tissues.
Limu moui is also known as kombu, mazuku and angel’s hair. This plant contains the polysaccharide known as fucoidan. Biomedical Research Laboratories of Takara Shuzo (CEO Hisashi Omiya) and Research Institute for Glycotechnology Advancement, a company funded by the Bio-oriented Technology Research Institute (CEO: Kazue Fukushi), have discovered that a polysaccharide known as U-fucoidan, which is found in kombu and other types of brown seaweed (wakame, mozuku, and hijiki) , causes various types of established cancer cell lines to self-destruct. What is U-fucoidan? About 4% percent of the total dry weight of many types of brown seaweed, such as kombu, consists of a polysaccharide known as fucoidan. Fucoidan is a sulfated polysaccharide that possesses a complex structure. Its chief components include a sulfuric esterified L-fucose, and trace elements of galactose, xylose, and glucuronic acid. Working in conjunction, Takara Shuzo’s Biomedical Research Laboratories and Research Institute for Glycotechnology Advancement were able to confirm the presence of two different types of fucoidan molecules in brown seaweed. The first type, bearing the name F-fucoidan, consists mainly of sulfated fucose. The second type bears the name U-fucoidan and approximately 20% of it consists of glucuronic acid. Researchers at both institutions were able to use a technique known as pyridlamination, developed by Takara Shuzo in conjunction with the University of Osaka, to shed light on the chemical structure of U-fucoidan. The biological activity of fucoidan Numerous accounts have ascribed to fucoidan properties such as the ability to act as an anti-contraceptive, to reduce cholesterol levels, and to act as an anti-tumor agent. However, a definitive consensus concerning the precise nature of fucoidan has still not been reached. The Biomedical Research Laboratories of Takara Shuzo and the Research Institute for Glycotechnology Advancement have focused their attention on the anti-tumor properties of fucoidan, and have managed to confirm that this substance causes certain types of rapidly growing cancer cells to self-destruct. Examples of cancer cell strains where this self-destruct phenomenon was observed include human acute promyelocytic leukemia cells (HL-60 cell line), human stomach cancer cells (AGS cell line), human colon cancer cells (HCT-116 cell line), and cancer cells of the descending colon (SW-480 cell line/WiDr cell line). Moreover, this self-destruction was observed to take place without affecting normal cells. Currently, efforts are underway to clarify the precise mechanism by which this phenomenon occurs. Some of the reasons which have until recently prevented the formation of a definitive scientific consensus concerning the precise nature of fucoidan include the fact that it possesses an extremely complex structure, as well as the difficulty of obtaining pure samples of fucoidan. Both Takara and Research Institute for Glycotechnology Advancement strove to overcome these difficulties, and after having managed to produce pure samples of fucoidan, carried out the studies that led to the above conclusions. The mechanism through which cancer cells self-destruct In the presence of certain substances, as well as under other unusual environmental conditions, cells may self-destruct and disappear altogether. This self-destruct phenomenon is known as apoptosis, and is to be properly distinguished from necrosis, which is the death of cells directly brought about by external stimuli such as poisonous substances and physical damage to the cell. Properly speaking, apoptosis is brought about by a mechanism that is programmed into the natural makeup of cells. Organisms activate this mechanism when necessary, and once the apoptosis mechanism has been triggered, the genetic blueprint of the cell (DNA) is rendered useless through activation of the deoxyribonuclease found within the cell itself. Apoptosis thus may said to be a natural means through which living organisms manage to eliminate harmful cells from their systems. The significance of this discovery and future prospects From ancient times (dating from the Jomon era, approximately before the 2nd century B.C onwards), brown seaweed has been a mainstay of the traditional Japanese diet. It is precisely these seaweeds that contain the U-fucoidan that serve to trigger the apoptosis mechanism described above. The prefecture of Okinawa, whose inhabitants enjoy some of the highest life expectancies in Japan, also happens to have one of the highest per capita consumption rates of kombu-1 gram per person per day. It is noteworthy that the cancer death rate in Okinawa is the lowest of all the prefectures in Japan. The average per capita consumption rate of kombu in Japan is approximately 0.5 grams per day. Such a serving of kombu would include roughly 5 mg of U-fucoidan. In vivo experiments are currently underway to determine the effects of U-fucoidan within living organisms. If it is confirmed that U-fucoidan can help bring about apoptosis solely in cancer cells that are multiplying at uncontrolled rates, we would then have within our reach the long-dreamt of cancer drug-one that does its job without causing adverse side effects. Details of the above discovery were disclosed at the 18th Annual Conference of the Carbohydrate Symposium (August 19-21), the 69th Annual Proceedings of the Japanese Biochemical Society (August 26-30), and the 55th Annual Proceedings of the Japanese Cancer Society (October 10-12). Polysaccharide Technical Reference J Pharmacobiodyn 1984 Jul;7(7):492-500 Antitumor activity of a polysaccharide fraction extracted from cultured fruiting bodies of Grifola frondosa. Suzuki I, Itani T, Ohno N, Oikawa S, Sato K, Miyazaki T, Yadomae T Gen Pharmacol 1997 Oct;29(4):497-511 Sulfated polysaccharides extracted from sea algae as potential antiviral drugs. Witvrouw M, Clercq ED Rega institute for Medical Research, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Belgium. Biol Reprod 1996 Jan;54(1):173-182 Sulfated polysaccharides inhibit lymphocyte-to-epithelial transmission of human immunodeficiency virus-1. Pearce-Pratt R, Phillips DM Antimicrob Agents Chemother 1987 Oct;31(10):1524-1528 Purification and characterization of an avian myeloblastosis and human immunodeficiency virus reverse transcriptase inhibitor, sulfated polysaccharides extracted from sea algae. Nakashima H, Kido Y, Kobayashi N, Motoki Y, Neushul M, Yamamoto N Department of Virology and Parasitology, Yamaguchi University School of Medicine, Japan. Oncology 1989;46(5):343-348 Anticancer potential of a dietary seaweed extract, on Lewis lung carcinoma in comparison with chemical immunomodulators and on cyclosporine-accelerated AKR leukemia. Furusawa E, Furusawa S Department of Pharmacology, School of Medicine, University of Hawaii, Honolulu. AIDS Res Hum Retroviruses 1996 Oct 10;12(15):1463-1471 A natural sulfated polysaccharide, in vitro and ex vivo evaluation of anti-herpes simplex virus and anti-human immunodeficiency virus activities. Hayashi K, Hayashi T, Kojima I Department of Virology, Toyama Medical and Pharmaceutical University, Japan. Antimicrob Agents Chemother 1988 Nov;32(11):1742-1745 Sulfated polysaccharides are potent and selective inhibitors of various enveloped viruses, including herpes simplex virus, cytomegalovirus, vesicular stomatitis virus, and human immunodeficiency virus. Baba M, Snoeck R, Pauwels R, de Clercq E Rega Institute for Medical Research, Katholieke Universiteit Leuven, Belgium. Oncology 1985;42(6):364-369 Anticancer activity of a natural component extracted from Undaria pinnantifida on intraperitoneally implanted Lewis lung carcinoma. Furusawa E, Furusawa S AIDS Res Hum Retroviruses 1996 Oct 10;12(15):1463-1471 A natural sulfated polysaccharide, calcium spirulan, isolated from Spirulina platensis: in vitro and ex vivo evaluation of anti-herpes simplex virus and anti-human immunodeficiency virus activities. Biochem Biophys Res Commun 1989 Apr 14;160(1):367-373 Inhibition of the infectivity and cytopathic effect of human immunodeficiency virus by water-soluble lignin in an extract of the culture medium of Lentinus edodes mycelia (LEM). Suzuki H, Okubo A, Yamazaki S, Suzuki K, Mitsuya H, Toda S Department of Agricultural Chemistry, University of Tokyo, Japan. J Pharmacobiodyn 1984 Jul;7(7):492-500 Antitumor activity of a polysaccharide fraction extracted from cultured fruiting bodies of Grifola frondosa. Suzuki I, Itani T, Ohno N, Oikawa S, Sato K, Miyazaki T, Yadomae T J Int Med Res 1994 Nov;22(6):299-312 Immunomodulatory and anti-tumour polysaccharides from medicinal plants. Wong CK, Leung KN, Fung KP, Choy YM Department of Biochemistry, Chinese University of Hong Kong, Shatin, New Territories. Chung Kuo Chung Yao Tsa Chih 1992 Apr;17(4):226-228 Chemical studies on immunologically active polysaccharides of Ganoderma lucidum(Leyss. ex Fr.) Karst. He Y, Li R, Chen Q, Lin Z, Xia D, Ma L School of Pharmacy, Beijing Medical University. J Int Med Res 1994 Nov;22(6):299-312 Immunomodulatory and … read more »
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> Well, I suppose anything is possible, but one would think that the Japanese > people who have consummed Limu Moui and other type sea plants for centuries > would be showing signs of any potential problems by now and they’re not. On > the contrary, years of use and study have shown it to be non-toxic and very > beneficial to human health.
According to the Nature’s Bounty web site on limu: $ Until recently, only the Tongan people knew of the ancient, health enhancing $ secret ingredient that is Limu Moui. From what they say, it appears that neither the Japanese nor anybody except the Tongans have consumed limu until recently. According to an FDA review of another manufacturer’s data, fucoidan-based supplements have only been marketed in Japan since 1999: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/95s0316/rpt0082.pdf Of course, the Japanese have eaten various types of seaweed for centuries, but those seaweeds aren’t limu.
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> > And let’s not forget the other questions that Cher conveniently > ignores. > I’m still waiting for you to answer a few questions as well….Such as: What > are your credentials? Why should your opinion be more valuable than Dr. > DeSilva’s?
Because I’m not a huckster trying to sell the stuff. I don’t have a vested interest in trying to hype the product. People don’t need my credentials because I cite my sources of information. I cite scientific papers (and quote them when relevant) and government reports. I give exact and complete citations, so anyone can check up on them to verify their accuracy. Your request for credentials is just a distraction from the questions I raise. For example, you still haven’t responded to this earlier question. You said: $ How can fucoidan do so much? Is it a miracle or a cure all? No. It simply $ gives the immune system what it needs to function properly. When the immune $ system is working properly it is able to correct many of the ailments and $ illness’s we experience today. Why would this chemical — fucoidan — be what your immune system "needs to function properly"? This is not a normal constituent of the human diet. Why would the immune system have a need for something which is not normally present in the diet? > Your references to the anti-clotting ability was taken from clinical studies > on fucoidan. The supplement I"ve suggested *is not* fucoidan, but rather a > product made from a sea plant that contains many valuable nutrients and > fucoidan.
Actually, no. I did not cite any clinical studies on fucoidan. You don’t seem to understand what a "clinical study" is. A clinical study is a study performed in humans to establish the safe and effective dosage range. Phase I clinical studies establish the safe range, and Phase II clinical studies establish the effective dose. Fucoidan has had neither Phase I nor Phase II clinical studies. Therefore, we don’t know how much is safe or effective. > I apologize for "going on" about fucoidan. I shouldn’t have. That has been > misleading and I’m sorry for getting carried away.. It’s just that the
Yes, very misleading. Deceptive. > fucoidan has been looked at extensively and the research is very promising. > The small amount of fucoidan, along with the other wide variety of > nutrients, minerals and chemical compounds offer an excellent source of > nutrition which is helping many people to achieve better health.
Small amount? According to the Nature’s Bounty web site on limu, it’s the main ingredient: $ Limu Moui’s main ingredient is Fucoidan, which according to $ prominent Japanese researcher Dr. Kyosuke Owa is said to $ "contain the same healing antibodies found in mother’s milk, $ providing essential amino acids and a balanced diet of minerals $ necessary to boost the immune system." Of course, that web site is full of baloney. Plants don’t make antibodies. We don’t know how much fucoidan is safe or effective. The small amount present in the product you’re hawking might have activity in humans, or it might not. If it does have activity, there are some serious safety concerns that need to be looked at, such as its anticoagulant effect and its effect on enhancing tumor cell invasion (metastasis): Exp Cell Res 1998 Mar 15;239(2):301-10 Sulfated glycosaminoglycans enhance tumor cell invasion in vitro by stimulating plasminogen activation. Metastasizing tumor cells invade host tissues by degrading extracellular matrix constituents. We report here that the highly sulfated glycosaminoglycans, heparin and heparan sulfate, as well as the sulfated polysaccharide, fucoidan, significantly enhanced tumor cell invasion in vitro into fibrin, the basement membrane extract, Matrigel, or through a basement membrane-like extracellular matrix. The enhancement of tumor cell invasion was due to a stimulation of the proteolytic cascade of plasminogen activation since the effect required plasminogen activation and was abolished by inhibitors of urokinase-type plasminogen activator (uPA) or plasmin. Sulfated polysaccharides enhanced five reactions of tumor-cell initiated plasminogen activation in a dose-dependent manner. They amplified plasminogen activation in culture supernatants up to 70-fold by stimulating (i) pro-uPA activation by plasmin and (ii) plasminogen activation by uPA. (iii) In addition, sulfated polysaccharides partially protected plasmin from inactivation by alpha 2-antiplasmin. Sulfated polysaccharides also stimulated tumor-cell associated plasminogen activation, e.g., (iv) cell surface pro-uPA activation by plasmin and (v) plasminogen activation by cell surface uPA. These results suggest that sulfated glycosaminoglycans liberated by tumor-cell mediated extracellular matrix degradation in vivo might amplify pericellular plasminogen activation and locally enhance tumor cell invasion in a positive feedback manner.
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- Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > And let’s not forget the other questions that Cher conveniently > > ignores. > I’m still waiting for you to answer a few questions as well….Such as: >What > are your credentials? Why should your opinion be more valuable than Dr. > DeSilva’s? >Because I’m not a huckster trying to sell the stuff. I don’t >have a vested interest in trying to hype the product. >People don’t need my credentials because I cite my sources >of information. I cite scientific papers (and quote them when >relevant) and government reports. I give exact and complete >citations, so anyone can check up on them to verify their >accuracy.
Ah ah Mark. I hope you do now, but I don’t think you did this concerning Cell Tech, otherwise they wouldn’t have sued you. You seem to be playing a role of net police when anyone posts a new product. The question was legit. What you post many times is merely your opinion. Jan The world cares very little about what a person knows; it is what the person is able to do that counts. Booker T Washington
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> > Exp Cell Res 1998 Mar 15;239(2):301-10 > Sulfated glycosaminoglycans enhance tumor cell invasion > in vitro by stimulating plasminogen activation. > Metastasizing tumor cells invade host tissues by degrading > extracellular matrix constituents. > Yes…exactly! Either one of us doesn’t understand the above or you don’t > believe that speeding up the natural invasion (attack) on a tumor to be a > good thing. What I read sounds positive…..
What part of "Metastasizing tumor cells invade host tissues …" don’t you understand? Metastasis is the process by which a cancer (tumor) spreads by invading other tissues.
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> And, you still haven’t answered the question. Why would > fucoidan be something that your immune system "needs to function > properly"? > I would like to ask ‘Cher’ whether she has an axe to grind.
I have no axe to grind….why would you think that? Is she > selling FUCOIDAN or administering alternative medicines and being paid > as a practitioner or working for the company which sells FUCOIDAN? If > so, she should openly admit it.
What? Are you crazy? I assure you I’m not selling. I’m simply trying to make information available to someone who may be interested. Yes, there is a supplement that contains the Limu Moui plant (which contains the ingredients I’ve previously listed). Yes hundreds of thousands of people use it regularly, and they purchase it without my help. No I am not here to sell it, as a matter of fact I absolutely, positively, unequivocally, will not do sales. I give you my word (you don’t know me….but my word is good)….I will never, ever attempt to sell this supplement in here..NEVER. Anyone wanting the Limu product can get it directly through the company. At this point I don’t think anyone > knows what the immune system needs in order to function properly, other > than the nutrients which all the cells of our body need. I think we > are only beginning to learn how the immune system works. And > it seems to me that it is just as likely that FUCOIDAN causes some rare > dread disease as it is that it cures something.
Well, I suppose anything is possible, but one would think that the Japanese people who have consummed Limu Moui and other type sea plants for centuries would be showing signs of any potential problems by now and they’re not. On the contrary, years of use and study have shown it to be non-toxic and very beneficial to human health. — Let Freedom Ring! o/ God Bless America
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– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Exp Cell Res 1998 Mar 15;239(2):301-10 > Sulfated glycosaminoglycans enhance tumor cell invasion > in vitro by stimulating plasminogen activation. > Metastasizing tumor cells invade host tissues by degrading > extracellular matrix constituents. We report here that the > highly sulfated glycosaminoglycans, heparin and heparan > sulfate, as well as the sulfated polysaccharide, fucoidan, > significantly enhanced tumor cell invasion in vitro into > fibrin, the basement membrane extract, Matrigel, or through > a basement membrane-like extracellular matrix. The > enhancement of tumor cell invasion was due to a stimulation > of the proteolytic cascade of plasminogen activation since > the effect required plasminogen activation and was > abolished by inhibitors of urokinase-type plasminogen > activator (uPA) or plasmin. Sulfated polysaccharides > enhanced five reactions of tumor-cell initiated plasminogen > activation in a dose-dependent manner. They amplified > plasminogen activation in culture supernatants up to 70-fold > by stimulating (i) pro-uPA activation by plasmin and > (ii) plasminogen activation by uPA. (iii) In addition, > sulfated polysaccharides partially protected plasmin > from inactivation by alpha 2-antiplasmin. Sulfated > polysaccharides also stimulated tumor-cell associated > plasminogen activation, e.g., (iv) cell surface pro-uPA > activation by plasmin and (v) plasminogen activation by > cell surface uPA. These results suggest that sulfated > glycosaminoglycans liberated by tumor-cell mediated > extracellular matrix degradation in vivo might amplify > pericellular plasminogen activation and locally enhance > tumor cell invasion in a positive feedback manner.
Yes…exactly! Either one of us doesn’t understand the above or you don’t believe that speeding up the natural invasion (attack) on a tumor to be a good thing. What I read sounds positive…..
Response:
> > You’re "giving the immune system" something which is not normally > found in the human diet. Only populations that eat large amounts of > certain species of seaweed get any fucoidan at all. Why would this > chemical be what your immune system "needs to function properly"? > That just doesn’t make sense. > You appear to be "willingly ignorant"..which basically means that you are > intentionally attempting to be stupid. But I’ll play along one more
You then follow this statement by describing other chemicals in the limu — not the fucoidan which was the subject of my question. Let me remind you of your words from an earlier post: $ How can fucoidan do so much? Is it a miracle or a cure all? No. It simply $ gives the immune system what it needs to function properly. When the immune $ system is working properly it is able to correct many of the ailments and $ illness’s we experience today. Why would this chemical — fucoidan — be what your immune system "needs to function properly"? This is not a normal constituent of the human diet. > The limu moui plant contains many compounds needed for good health and for > supporting immune system function…..Some of these are: > Glyconutrients, including galactose, mannose, xylose.
These are just the names of sugars found in abundance in lots of foods, such as fruit, grains, and vegetables. Calling them by their obscure chemical names and labelling them "glyconutrients" may sound more scientifical to the rubes, but that’s just a gloss to make your product seem special. Claiming to have galactose, mannose, xylose is like claiming to have starch or protein — lots of foods do, and there’s nothing special about your product as a source of these. > Seventeen amino acids including glycoproteins
Nearly all foods, such as meat, cheese, milk, fruit, grains, and vegetables contain these. Nothing special here. > A wide range of essential and nonessential fatty acids
Ditto. Nothing special here. > Essential minerals and vitamins
Ditto. Nothing special here. > A variety of polyphenols (antioxidants)
Fruit and vegetables have these. Nothing special here. > Fucans and fuciodan which are immune stimulant properties and also raise > HGF.
And happens to be a powerful anticoagulant. > Laminarin, which is the anticlotting compound.
Oh, wonderful. A second anticoagulant. > Glyconutrients are vital for optimal immune function.
If you didn’t eat any sugar at all in your diet, that would be a very weird diet and probably not a very good one. So what? Nobody eating a normal diet has a sugar deficiency. > The limu moui plant > contains all 8. People who lack proper levels of these glyconutrients are > more affected by certain disease/disorders than others.
Again, you’re talking about a non-existent problem. But by using the obscure term "glyconutrient" instead of "sugar", you’re being deceptive. Some people might not realize you’re talking about sugar. > The polyphenol content found within the limu moui plant is practically > enough reason to consider it a valuable dietary supplement. these > polyphenols act as excellent cell protectors that help prevent malignant > growths, degenerative diseases, tissue damage and skin deterioration.
Which polyphenols and in what quantity? Polyphenols from green tea and grapes are heralded as possibly beneficial to health, but that’s because these sources are very rich in polyphenols. All fruit and vegetables have polyphenols, but if the amount is small, there’s no point in eating those foods only for their polyphenol content. And, you still haven’t answered the question. Why would fucoidan be something that your immune system "needs to function properly"? That makes no sense at all. Instead of addressing the question, you come up with a blizzard of other chemicals (most being common chemicals under obscure names) as other reasons to take this product. You’re dodging the question. You’re not being honest.
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> And let’s not forget the other questions that Cher conveniently > ignores.
I’m still waiting for you to answer a few questions as well….Such as: What are your credentials? Why should your opinion be more valuable than Dr. DeSilva’s? – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> > Interesting that many of these hits refer to fucoidan’s anticoagulant > > properties. > > fucoidan AND anticoagulant = 188 hits > > That suggests fucoidan may be risky for people with > > various kinds of bleeding problems. > Not at all, it poses no threat what so ever. The Doctor addressed that very > question when we heard him speak. > It’s a more potent antiproliferative polysulphated polysaccharide than > heparin and also inhibits the formation of blood clots by preventing fibrin > compounds from clumping and sticking to artery walls. If I understood him > correctly fucoidan acts as an excellent blood thinner…*if the blood needs > to be thinned*….
The supplement containing the Limu Moui would not be very beneficial as an anti-coagulant. It does contain fucoidan, and fucoidan is a more potent anti-coagulant than heparin, but one would have to consume massive amounts in order to get the desired effect. > So you’re saying fucoidan knows when the blood needs to be > thinned and when thinning the blood would be harmful? How > does it make such a diagnosis?
He was specifically asked about the anti-clotting effect of the fucoidan in the supplement. Maybe I missed understood him? I do know that he said it would not present a problem for someone like my mother in law who was think about it, isn’t that what many medicines do. How do any of our medications know what to "fix",or how to "fix"? I suppose it works on the same principle. > What if you have two conditions, one which could be harmed > by anticoagulant activity (such as a cerebral hemorrhage) > and another which could be helped (such as a blood clot in > a branch of the coronary artery)? How does fucoidan decide > what to do in that case?
Your references to the anti-clotting ability was taken from clinical studies on fucoidan. The supplement I"ve suggested *is not* fucoidan, but rather a product made from a sea plant that contains many valuable nutrients and fucoidan. I apologize for "going on" about fucoidan. I shouldn’t have. That has been misleading and I’m sorry for getting carried away.. It’s just that the fucoidan has been looked at extensively and the research is very promising. The small amount of fucoidan, along with the other wide variety of nutrients, minerals and chemical compounds offer an excellent source of nutrition which is helping many people to achieve better health. Let Freedom Ring! o/ God Bless America
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Exp Cell Res 1998 Mar 15;239(2):301-10 Sulfated glycosaminoglycans enhance tumor cell invasion in vitro by stimulating plasminogen activation. Metastasizing tumor cells invade host tissues by degrading extracellular matrix constituents. We report here that the highly sulfated glycosaminoglycans, heparin and heparan sulfate, as well as the sulfated polysaccharide, fucoidan, significantly enhanced tumor cell invasion in vitro into fibrin, the basement membrane extract, Matrigel, or through a basement membrane-like extracellular matrix. The enhancement of tumor cell invasion was due to a stimulation of the proteolytic cascade of plasminogen activation since the effect required plasminogen activation and was abolished by inhibitors of urokinase-type plasminogen activator (uPA) or plasmin. Sulfated polysaccharides enhanced five reactions of tumor-cell initiated plasminogen activation in a dose-dependent manner. They amplified plasminogen activation in culture supernatants up to 70-fold by stimulating (i) pro-uPA activation by plasmin and (ii) plasminogen activation by uPA. (iii) In addition, sulfated polysaccharides partially protected plasmin from inactivation by alpha 2-antiplasmin. Sulfated polysaccharides also stimulated tumor-cell associated plasminogen activation, e.g., (iv) cell surface pro-uPA activation by plasmin and (v) plasminogen activation by cell surface uPA. These results suggest that sulfated glycosaminoglycans liberated by tumor-cell mediated extracellular matrix degradation in vivo might amplify pericellular plasminogen activation and locally enhance tumor cell invasion in a positive feedback manner.
Response:
And let’s not forget the other questions that Cher conveniently ignores. – Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> Interesting that many of these hits refer to fucoidan’s anticoagulant > properties. > fucoidan AND anticoagulant = 188 hits > That suggests fucoidan may be risky for people with > various kinds of bleeding problems. > Not at all, it poses no threat what so ever. The Doctor addressed that very > question when we heard him speak. > It’s a more potent antiproliferative polysulphated polysaccharide than > heparin and also inhibits the formation of blood clots by preventing fibrin > compounds from clumping and sticking to artery walls. If I understood him > correctly fucoidan acts as an excellent blood thinner…*if the blood needs > to be thinned*….
So you’re saying fucoidan knows when the blood needs to be thinned and when thinning the blood would be harmful? How does it make such a diagnosis? What if you have two conditions, one which could be harmed by anticoagulant activity (such as a cerebral hemorrhage) and another which could be helped (such as a blood clot in a branch of the coronary artery)? How does fucoidan decide what to do in that case?
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> And, you still haven’t answered the question. Why would > fucoidan be something that your immune system "needs to function > properly"?
I would like to ask ‘Cher’ whether she has an axe to grind. Is she selling FUCOIDAN or administering alternative medicines and being paid as a practitioner or working for the company which sells FUCOIDAN? If so, she should openly admit it. At this point I don’t think anyone knows what the immune system needs in order to function properly, other than the nutrients which all the cells of our body need. I think we are only beginning to learn how the immune system works. And it seems to me that it is just as likely that FUCOIDAN causes some rare dread disease as it is that it cures something. Nevertheless, I think it is to all our benefits that research is being done on these alternative medicines.
Response:
> You’re "giving the immune system" something which is not normally > found in the human diet. Only populations that eat large amounts of > certain species of seaweed get any fucoidan at all. Why would this > chemical be what your immune system "needs to function properly"? > That just doesn’t make sense.
You appear to be "willingly ignorant"..which basically means that you are intentionally attempting to be stupid. But I’ll play along one more The limu moui plant contains many compounds needed for good health and for supporting immune system function…..Some of these are: Glyconutrients, including galactose, mannose, xylose. Seventeen amino acids including glycoproteins A wide range of essential and nonessential fatty acids Essential minerals and vitamins A variety of polyphenols (antioxidants) Fucans and fuciodan which are immune stimulant properties and also raise HGF. Laminarin, which is the anticlotting compound. Glyconutrients are vital for optimal immune function. The limu moui plant contains all 8. People who lack proper levels of these glyconutrients are more affected by certain disease/disorders than others. The polyphenol content found within the limu moui plant is practically enough reason to consider it a valuable dietary supplement. these polyphenols act as excellent cell protectors that help prevent malignant growths, degenerative diseases, tissue damage and skin deterioration.
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> From this point on I will simply ignore you. You are either extremely > silly, stupid or stubborn? I have yet to figure out which?
I cite facts. You just try to "spin" the story to push product for your multi-level marketing scheme. > Fucoidan is perfectly safe, so much so that those who have studied it > have compared it to "mother’s milk". . I have taken it twice a day for 7
Is that "spin" or fact? "Mother’s milk", indeed. > months, as have my husband, my three children, my grandson, my sister, my > mother, my mother-in-law and my pharmacist. My husbands carpel tunnel > syndrome, sinus and allergies have virtually disappeared. My grandson (19 > months) who once kept a runny nose/mucous type congestion continually, and > earaches on a regular basis , no longer experiences these problems, at all.
Personal testimonials from an MLM distributor aren’t exactly reliable information. > My 78 yr. old mother-law recently had a "stint" . She was placed on an > aspirin a day along with an anti-coagulant. Her doctor reviewed the > information on the fucoidan which clearly included it’s anti-coagulant > ability and saw no problem with her continuing on it. (If you REALLY did
How much information did her doctor get on the anti-coagulant properties of this rather obscure material? If he only had what was provided by Nature’s Bounty, I doubt he was well informed. If your mother-in-law was already on an anti-coagulant, she obviously had already been screened for the sort of conditions that can be adversely affected by an anti-coagulant. > your homework you would have found that the amount of fucoidan needed to > produce the anti-coagulant effects cited in the studies is tremendously > much, much more than what is in this product). She has since discontinued
None of the studies I found on Medline were clinical studies, that is, studies in humans correlating the amount of material required to achieve an effective dose. Without such studies, you can’t say how much of your product would be needed to provoke it’s anti-coagulant properties. In the absence of such information, your statement is just more "spin". And if the amount of fucoidan available from your product is so low, how can it exert any of its alleged beneficial effects? > the aspirin and prescription. She was able to get off her anti-depressant > meds after two weeks on the fucoidan product as well. My sister who has > suffered with chronic asthma her entire life and who has relied on inhalers > and prescriptions to help her breathe has not used the inhaler *AT ALL* > since beginning on it and has rarely used her other med. She, my mother, > and myself have all experienced dramatic relief in our pain associated with > arthritis. My sister-in-law has suffered with the pain and fatigue of > fibromyalgia for years. Since beginning on this stuff her pain is 80% gone > and her energy level is better than it’s been in years.
More personal testimonials from an MLM distributor. Yawn. > There are literally thousands of people who have and are using it, and > not only here but in Japan. It has been used for centuries with absolutely > no evidence of toxicity and not a trace of ill effect.
The FDA reviewed this data when Ocean’s Treasure tried to market a fucoidan-based dietary supplement. Fucoidan-based dietary supplements have only been marketed in Japan since 1999, not centuries. The FDA rejected this data for a variety of reasons, including that there was no follow-up monitoring of the consumers of these products for adverse health effects. To see the FDA’s actual comments on this data, see: http://www.fda.gov/ohrms/dockets/dockets/95s0316/rpt0082.pdf > How can fucoidan do so much? Is it a miracle or a cure all? No. It simply > gives the immune system what it needs to function properly. When the immune > system is working properly it is able to correct many of the ailments and > illness’s we experience today.
You’re "giving the immune system" something which is not normally found in the human diet. Only populations that eat large amounts of certain species of seaweed get any fucoidan at all. Why would this chemical be what your immune system "needs to function properly"? That just doesn’t make sense. > I will no longer respond to you personally, although I will continue to > correct the misinformation that you spew.
Ha! Enjoy it.
Response:
> So why not provide me with your references for > your conclusions about fucoidan?
A Medline search on fucoidan + anticoagulant turns up a huge number of hits. It’s quite apparent that fucoidan has powerful anticoagulant properties. Taking an anticoagulant without the close supervision of a physician is inviting a variety of complications, possibly ranging from the minor nuisance of altered menstral flows to life-threatening internal bleeding, such as a cerebral hemorrhage. I’m not saying anybody has yet been harmed by products containing fucoidan — the products are very new and not many people have been exposed — but I do think you’d be very unwise to take such products, at least until they’ve built up a track record of safe use. Here’s a few (of a much larger number) of citations from Medline which refer to the anticoagulant properties of fucoidan: Thromb Haemost 1999 Mar;81(3):391-5 Antithrombotic and anticoagulant activities of a low molecular weight fucoidan by the subcutaneous route. J Biomater Sci Polym Ed 1998;9(4):373-87 Comparative anticoagulant activity and influence on thrombin generation of dextran derivatives and of a fucoidan fraction. Thromb Haemost 1995 Nov;74(5):1280-5 Venous antithrombotic and anticoagulant activities of a fucoidan fraction. Biochem Pharmacol 1992 Apr 15;43(8):1853-8 Fibrinolytic and anticoagulant activities of highly sulfated fucoidan. Thromb Res 1991 Oct 15;64(2):143-54 Anticoagulant properties of a fucoidan fraction. Phytochemistry 1991;30(2):535-9 An anticoagulant fucoidan from the brown seaweed Ecklonia kurome. > I’ve also asked for your sources which > led you to such an unflattering impression > of Dr. DeSilva ( huckster with an MD),
I think it’s fair to use the term "huckster" to describe someone who promotes dubious dietary supplements for a sleazy company like the one in question. I base my opinion that the company is "sleazy" on this information from a government web site: http://www.ftc.gov/os/1998/9803/aging98.rpt.htm In 1995, the Commission issued a cease and desist order against Nature’s Bounty, Inc. and two of its subsidiaries to settle allegations that they made deceptive weight-loss, body-building, disease-treatment and/or other health-related claims for 26 nutrient supplements they marketed. The order prohibits the respondents from making various allegedly false claims, as well as requiring them to have substantiation for future health claims. The order also requires the respondents to pay $250,000 to the Commission — to be used for consumer redress, if practical, or to be paid to the U.S. Treasury.
Response:
From this point on I will simply ignore you. You are either extremely silly, stupid or stubborn? I have yet to figure out which? Fucoidan is perfectly safe, so much so that those who have studied it have compared it to "mother’s milk". . I have taken it twice a day for 7 months, as have my husband, my three children, my grandson, my sister, my mother, my mother-in-law and my pharmacist. My husbands carpel tunnel syndrome, sinus and allergies have virtually disappeared. My grandson (19 months) who once kept a runny nose/mucous type congestion continually, and earaches on a regular basis , no longer experiences these problems, at all. My 78 yr. old mother-law recently had a "stint" . She was placed on an aspirin a day along with an anti-coagulant. Her doctor reviewed the information on the fucoidan which clearly included it’s anti-coagulant ability and saw no problem with her continuing on it. (If you REALLY did your homework you would have found that the amount of fucoidan needed to produce the anti-coagulant effects cited in the studies is tremendously much, much more than what is in this product). She has since discontinued the aspirin and prescription. She was able to get off her anti-depressant meds after two weeks on the fucoidan product as well. My sister who has suffered with chronic asthma her entire life and who has relied on inhalers and prescriptions to help her breathe has not used the inhaler *AT ALL* since beginning on it and has rarely used her other med. She, my mother, and myself have all experienced dramatic relief in our pain associated with arthritis. My sister-in-law has suffered with the pain and fatigue of fibromyalgia for years. Since beginning on this stuff her pain is 80% gone and her energy level is better than it’s been in years. There are literally thousands of people who have and are using it, and not only here but in Japan. It has been used for centuries with absolutely no evidence of toxicity and not a trace of ill effect. How can fucoidan do so much? Is it a miracle or a cure all? No. It simply gives the immune system what it needs to function properly. When the immune system is working properly it is able to correct many of the ailments and illness’s we experience today. I will no longer respond to you personally, although I will continue to correct the misinformation that you spew. — Let Freedom Ring! o/ God Bless America
– Hide quoted text — Show quoted text -> So why not provide me with your references for > your conclusions about fucoidan? > A Medline search on fucoidan + anticoagulant turns up > a huge number of hits. It’s quite apparent that > fucoidan has powerful anticoagulant properties. > Taking an anticoagulant without the close supervision > of a physician is inviting a variety of complications, > possibly ranging from the minor nuisance of altered > menstral flows to life-threatening internal bleeding, > such as a cerebral hemorrhage. I’m not saying > anybody has yet been harmed by products containing > fucoidan — the products are very new and not many people > have been exposed — but I do think you’d be very unwise > to take such products, at least until they’ve built up > a track record of safe use. > Here’s a few (of a much larger number) of > citations from Medline which refer to the > anticoagulant properties of fucoidan: > Thromb Haemost 1999 Mar;81(3):391-5 > Antithrombotic and anticoagulant > activities of a low molecular weight > fucoidan by the subcutaneous route. > J Biomater Sci Polym Ed 1998;9(4):373-87 > Comparative anticoagulant activity > and influence on thrombin generation > of dextran derivatives and of a > fucoidan fraction. > Thromb Haemost 1995 Nov;74(5):1280-5 > Venous antithrombotic and anticoagulant > activities of a fucoidan fraction. > Biochem Pharmacol 1992 Apr 15;43(8):1853-8 > Fibrinolytic and anticoagulant activities > of highly sulfated fucoidan. > Thromb Res 1991 Oct 15;64(2):143-54 > Anticoagulant properties of a fucoidan > fraction. > Phytochemistry 1991;30(2):535-9 > An anticoagulant fucoidan from the brown > seaweed Ecklonia kurome. > I’ve also asked for your sources which > led you to such an unflattering impression > of Dr. DeSilva ( huckster with an MD), > I think it’s fair to use the term "huckster" > to describe someone who promotes dubious > dietary supplements for a sleazy company > like the one in question. I base my opinion > that the company is "sleazy" on this information > from a government web site: > http://www.ftc.gov/os/1998/9803/aging98.rpt.htm > In 1995, the Commission issued a cease and desist > order against Nature’s Bounty, Inc. and two of its > subsidiaries to settle allegations that they made > deceptive weight-loss, body-building, disease-treatment > and/or other health-related claims for 26 nutrient > supplements they marketed. The order prohibits the > respondents from making various allegedly false claims, > as well as requiring them to have substantiation for > future health claims. The order also requires the > respondents to pay $250,000 to the Commission — to > be used for consumer redress, if practical, or to be > paid to the U.S. Treasury.
Response:
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